Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts


The old and reliable.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Location: Custer, Washington

Post Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:19 pm

Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

I had to take the head off of my Green Diamond 233 engine. The head bolts are not good and should be replaced. They are 3 inch bolts measured without the washer but do not have any kind of shoulder at the head end like alot of head bolts. Can I just use a grade 8 bolts or am I better off finding a 7/16-14 head bolt the right length? Assuming I can find them.

Thanks

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Location: Canada's left Coast

Post Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

You need to do some research on bolt grades. Rather than me trying to post that information, it is easy to fine with a Google Search. https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-info ... chart.aspx
The one and only thing that makes a fastener hold your head tight to the block is first the torque on the stud (bolt) The second and equally important part of that equation is the ability of the fastener to stretch and return mostly to the original length. The cast iron in an Old IHC engine block is not strong enough to hold a grade 8 bolt while it is being stretched (tightened).
Grade 8 is not a size, but refers to the strength of the fastener and its ability to resist stretching. Caterpillar make their own fasteners and the grades go much higher than grade 8. The sever duty that a CAT may have endure will overwhelm grade 8 in a New York Minute.
What is thought to be beter may not be the best solution for a situation. My friend was having trouble with getting the heads on a Flathead V8 in a 1932 Ford Pickup to seal. He called me of "any idea:. They were using grade 8 long set-screws and grade 8 nuts against grade 8 washers. They had exceeded the maximum torque by 50% and were at risk of pulling the threads out of the block.
Something else you must consider as a better than real; possibility is, the Old IHC castiron will have deteriorated from thousands of heat cycles and the threads in the block will have weakened considerably. For this reason, you should strongly consider studs rather than bolts. Studs can be installed while not under tightening stress and a custom stud can go deeper than a random bolt. the bolt must move in the old threads while it is being tightened. This is double stress on the block threads. Ask ARP about thread sealant for the block to stud connection. Some threaded holes may go into the water jacket and improper sealing may (read that is will) cause a leak. This old engine most likely does not have a pressurised cooling system, so the leaking possibility will be much less.
If you are planning to change the cooling system to pressurized, that is much more to consider than plugging off the overflow tube and adding a pressure cap.
Do not run an inexpensive thread tap into the Old IHC block threads because the tap may remove metal, and this is not what you want to do. There are thread reconditioning taps that can move and improve the block threads. Back in the day cast iron could have an amount of sulfur in the mix. While this made the castiron flow better and leave fewer inclusions, the strength after 60- 70 years may be reduced.
https://arp-bolts.com/kits/product.php?PL=22 This company makes the best fasteners for you situation. ARP may also sell the thread conditioning taps. The little extra expense of ARP is nothing in comparison to the cost of repairing a screw-up.
I would rather have tools I do not need than to need tools I do not have
Thinking risks being controversial and possibly being offensive

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 432

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:16 pm

Location: Custer, Washington

Post Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

That is one awesome post. I thought that harder would be better and that is not the case. I was wondering about doing studs but none of the IH GRD motors seem to have them even though the original k1-k5 parts manual shows them. The torque spec on that head is only supposed to be like 60 pounds so that is not much. I was wondering why the bolts did not have shoulders on them though like some of the newer head bolts. There is 21 of them so maybe that is why? I will need to determine how deep the threads go as I am sure they go deeper than the bolts were going.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Location: Lyman, IA

Post Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:21 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

Nikki, I figured I'd let you write the book, I was busy! Studs have the added advantage of using course and fine threads where they are most advantageous. Course threads resist pull out and fine resist stripping while rotating. By placing the course in the block and the fine on the nut you get the strongest attachment.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Location: Canada's left Coast

Post Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:57 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

CB89, you are absolutely correct.
My 1947 C68A Ford Flathead V8 used 7/16" studs with 14 TPI in the block and 20 TPI for the clamping nuts. The torque spec is 45 pound/feet in three passes. The compression ratio was 6.75/1.

The original castiron heads were corroded to the studs and with all of the nuts removed, we ran the engine and the heads refused to release. So, what to do?? I bought two STARRTT hole saws and drilled down around the studs to within a few thousands of an inch of the block. We restarted the engine and the right head lifted a little while the left head remained stuck, tight. A little encouragement with a dead-blow hammer got the right head moving. The next and most difficult task was removing all 48 studs without breaking any of them. I used my old Lincoln buzz-box welder to warm up the studs. The block was grounded and the stinger was clamped to each stud. When the smoke started coming out, it was time to add some https://www.amazon.com/Moovit-Performan ... B0195EDNB4
I used a cam-lock stud remover. This was a two day ordeal. I sold the buzz-box on CL the next week.
Buy the studs you need. I single point turned each stud on my lathe. This is a good way to spend a week in the shop.
I would rather have tools I do not need than to need tools I do not have
Thinking risks being controversial and possibly being offensive

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:16 am

Post Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:24 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

KB1, GD 214- Ran it for 15 minutes with no sign of moisture and then garaged it. With the engine cold in the morning I noticed a very tiny drop of antifreeze sneaking out of the seam of the head over the manifolds near #1 cylinder but no run lines I re-torqued the bolts to 70 lbs, not backing off but going clockwise. Check again tomorrow AM.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Nov 04, 2020 2:30 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

FYI, if you are going to re-torque bolts in the future, ALWAYS back off some, 1/4 turn is plenty. It takes far more torque to break a bolt loose from a static position than it does to tighten.
Start in sequence, back the bolt 1/4 and tighten back to spec, then move on to the next bolt in sequence. The head never gets loose enough to break a seal.
Also, do not use the torque wrench to break loose, use a breaker bar or ratchet to loosen and the torque wrench to tighten ONLY.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 401

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:16 am

Post Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:29 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

Next torque sequence ( if needed ) will be done backing off a quarter turn . Back all 1/4 turn at once ? Then torque ?

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Nov 04, 2020 7:37 pm

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

No, just loosen one, then re-torque and move on to the next one. The idea isn't re-position the head, just bring the torque up spec's. Once everything has got warm, expanded then contracts, re torqueing brings it back to where you started.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 401

Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:16 am

Post Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:51 am

Re: Recommendation for GRD233 Head Bolts

Hmmm..just thinking out loud; say I wanted to switch to studs. What if I drained the coolant, removed one bolt at a time, replaced it with a stud the proper length and new sealant ? I’m thinking I can do this by locking a couple nuts together on the exposed thread until the stud is seated , remove one nut and then torque it. Maybe, if I do this in the suggested torque sequence, do you think it is doable ?

BK
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