Freedom of Choice


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Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:10 pm

Freedom of Choice

Freedom of Choice

It is a phase we hear a lot today on both side of the boarder. We have and I fully support the freedom to choose. We don’t have armed people pulling us from our houses to make us do something. There are a few exceptions, very few.
What people who claim their right to choose is being infringed, are upset about is not the freedom to choose, but the desire to not to face the consequences from their own choice.
I am free to get drunk as a skunk, but not free to choose if I get a hangover from that choice.
When my action affects only myself, I have the freedom to choose, when my choice also effects others, there are consequences for my choice.
If I get drunk at home, it is my choice to do so, but if I then get in an automobile, my choice to get drunk and have bad effects on others. I can choose to still do so, but I can’t choose not to be arrested and held accountable.
Early on in this pandemic I continued to truck, people were depending on what I delivered. There was no “antidote” to covid and the best we could do is mask-up and stay apart. I lived through the “no place to eat’ “no place to shower” no restrooms only “porta potties, no human contact time. I also avoided visiting family who were in declining health, not for my sake but for theirs. I lost time with my father I will never have the chance to get back. I appreciate those that also put themselves at risk to feed me while on the road, Some Ma and Pa places stayed open (within the guidance of local law) to provide for those that provide for them. I don’t think either of us really made money, but what we did was needed. Many placed profit over service and took gov handouts and closed their doors.
The rules in place on either side of the boarder don’t force people to get a vaccine, only that if you partake in some activities that you be vaccinated. Your choice! You can choose you course of action but not the consequences of your choice. I hear reports that 90% of trucker in Canada are vaccinated, much better in all accounts than truckers or even the general population of the US. I can understand why they want to keep it out north of the boarder.
We have people down here who are upset that being non-vaccinated bumps you from the transplant list. Again, choices made freely, accept the consequence of that choice.
There are people for medical reasons that can not be vaccinated, I have no beef with them, and for them, those of us that can, owe it to get vaccinated.
We also have people suing hospitals to get the treatment protocols against medical advice. If you think you know better, check yourself out of the hospital (and free up staff and rooms) and go seek your treatment elsewhere. The truth is these people have put themselves in the position they are in with their choices but want others to bare the burden of their choices. We all make dumb choices, and I don’t want to limit care because someone made a bad choice. However, if you choose to go to the hospital, you do so to seek their expertise, and as such either accept it or leave. Too often it isn’t a question of they want a treatment, but they want in the hospital and covered by insurance even as said treatment hasn’t been accepted as safe and effective. Again their choice is to push the burden on the rest of us for their choice. It isn’t that they aren’t allowed to choose but they aren’t allowed to make the rest of us to pay for their choice.
You can choose not to be vaccinated or to mask up and still fly, just not on a commercial airliner where your choices effect everyone else.
Canada on the whole, has done a much better job with Covid than the US. I can see why they don’t want to bring our results north of the boarder, afterall it is their (collectively) choice to make.
We have enough time in to know the very low risks involved with vaccination, their safety is beyond question. If people behaved this way with small pox and polio, they would still be with us. Thank god they are not.
By all means, make you own choice, but take the responsibility for what comes with that choice.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:23 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

Very well written, CB
I have a cousin who made his choice to not get the vax or wear a mask. His choice continues to take up space that others who need hospital care should have access to. Cousin's choice has rewarded him with the remainder of his life on some level of life support.
The real tragedy, here, is wife and two teen daughters. He just lost his mother to cancer. His father should not have to suffer this additional burden.
Our system continues to support cousin's situation caused by the choice he made. I doubt cousin learned anything, but I hope he has become an example of what a bad choice can do. Maybe others will learn, or not. :t2102:
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Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Location: Custer, Washington

Post Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:40 am

Re: Freedom of Choice

I agree with your comments on peoples choices and dealing with the consequences. The fact is that nobody trusts what they are being told and for good reason. When the science was convenient they tried to use it(and sometimes not). When it was no longer convenient they abandoned it. I agree that the people that choose not to be vaccinated may be taking the risk that they may become more ill than those that have been vaccinated. So be it. I do not buy the fact that these people are putting the vaccinated people at more risk. Masking the kids is an absolute joke and everyone knows it. There have been no deaths under 30 in our county and only 1 or 2 deaths in the Washington state under 17. And it is not because of the masks or lockdowns like they want you to think. The CDC Covid Guidelines are another example. If you are contagious for 10 days why can you go back to work after 5 days if you are vaccinated. Is that following the science? People are fed up. Time to move on.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Location: Canada's left Coast

Post Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:41 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

Here in Canada, I was told that my being vaccinated will protect me. Even after being vaccinated, I can still be a carrier and infect others.
So, I am vaccinated and I have had my booster, to protect me. I wear a mask, when I go out, to protect the unvaccinated I might come in contact with.
We do not go out to restaurants, like we used to. We have discovered many new, to us, restaurants through their take-away option.
I miss visiting with my friends like I used to do a few years ago. This is more from old age and all that goes with aging taking them away than fear of the big "C".
The science and facts show that vaccination helps. Here in Canada, we are entertaining nearly a 100% of those in ICU for covid119, not being vaccinated. This situation has filled hospitals and used hospital recourses to the point where other persons are being blocked from needed medical attention. My friend Jack is a good example of this. Jack needs to get back in a hospital to complete a heart surgery situation. Sadly, Jack is 87 and he is less able to look after himself now that he is "off-leash". HIs wife died about a year ago. She was 90 and quite capable until near the end of her life.
Do I think there might have been an over-reaction to the covid19 situation? Yes. I like to think my family doctor relied on science and not the politics of this situation. Overall, I think we, here in Canada, have been given the best information available at that time. Here in British Columbia I know we have had "it" much better than other provinces, where politics played a bigger role.
I would rather have tools I do not need than to need tools I do not have
Thinking risks being controversial and possibly being offensive
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Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:51 am

Re: Freedom of Choice

Good points CB .
I have been vaxed and boosted , we had covid in the house 2 cases, my wife and I didn't get it , after a day or two we figured, we were going to get it ,no masks or other than normal hygiene, we didn't get it , I assume the vaccine works, the 2 who had it had been vaxed not boosted.
I am typically skeptical of gov. & media,,, conservative, NOT a trumper . Try to choose my path forward with best firsthand knowledge, so far so good .
BUT ,,,,,,reading a book by Robert Kenedy , the real Dr. Fauci it states [and can be verified ] that because of federal law/regulations , fast-tracking of vaccines not allowed if there are currant and effective secondary measures available , consequently hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin were discredited , and on another note remdesivir , although being discontinued in an Ebola trial in Africa because of 43% fatality rate , was promoted as a go to in late term covid , it cost $10 to make and cost Medicare $3000 ./? China having done their own testing has not promoted it as a remedy.
I can understand it if this was all part of the politics to get the most good to the most people , but can also understand that there is enough information out there for the discerning to be skeptical .

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:28 am

Re: Freedom of Choice

I have doubt the claim about fast tracking. 1st it was done and 2nd every peer reviewed, double blind test of Hdroxy and the parasite drug have found them ineffective or at best inconclusive. Some people will improve regardless if they get any one drug or no drug at all. Same for getting infected, some will regardless of any drug and some will not even if they get no drug.
For this reason small studies may show some benefit but fail to show on repeat studies or larger ones. Humans (or any animal) are not all the same, and ethics prevent doing some studies (purposely infecting people with a high dose of virus) prevent absolute cause and effect reading of outcomes. As I said some will throw off the virus with any or no drug and some will be much worse off regardless. The larger the per group in the study the more it will reflex the general population. That is how these studies are done.
Give the above, you can get drugs that initially show promise, but fail when bigger studies are done. It doesn't mean there are conspiracies to favor one over the other.
Doctors can proscribe "off lable use" of a drug, and many do, but in doing so, it is not likely to be covered by insurace and they take the risk if things go wrong onto their own shoulders. This is how most new "uses" for a drug are discovered. I have no problem with people who want to go to a physician who will proscribe these treatments. That is between them and the people they are treating. I do have a problem with people going to court to force doctors to treat in a way that is against their best medical advice. If you want a course of action seek those that are willing, they are out there. Most if not all hospital's are not in favor of these "alternative" treatment and shouldn't be forced to administer them in their facilities If you want it seek it out where it is welcome. I am very leary when you place a judge in the position of making medical decisions. I don't want a lawyer to remove my prostate and I don't want a judge to say what is best medically. If you go to a doctor it is for their expertise, either accept it or choose another medico.
It is true that Ivermectin has shown to be effective at killing the virus at some levels, the problem is that it 100x the dose that most humans can handle. If that is your only reason for using it, I am sure there are a lot of things that will kill the virus, cyanide would also do it as long as you only care what kills you, the infection or the cure.
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Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:10 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

You have to read the book. It's complicated, a statistic that got my attention was that in Africa they take hydracloriquine to prevent malaria, the countries that were listed have a very low death rate from covid , it appears that it helps prevent a more serious case , [as does the ivermectin ,zinc ,D3 azithromycin ] ,dosage and timing are important, the one determining that in the trials case is questionable, and yes you are now receiving medical advice from a carpenter .

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5170

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:10 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

I read many things, I haven't read his book, but I don't take one persons word as gospel. If you have several independent sources ( not everyone quoting the same source over and over). So far I haven't seen any multiple sources make that claim.
Sure, it sound like something drug mfg would like, a monopoly on Covid drugs, but they don't have a monopoly on drug studies, these are done more at the academic level. Drug companies finance some studies (as required to get drugs approved) but not all. If something worked and could be proven in large double blind test, drug companies could not prevent that getting out.
The problems so far is these alternative drug fail when subject to larger test or repeat test, the gold standard for drug testing. There have been studies tried around the world where drug companies have little sway and the test either show no gain or have been stopped for causing harm to the precipitance. There has to be quantifiable gain for risk, so far these other drugs have failed. The gain for the vaccine is provable, just in the percent reduction in hospitalization of those infected, 83% reduction in the real world is hard to dispute.
Those inclined to see conspiracies will see them regardless of fact.
Early on, when there was no drug that proved effective studies were done on Hydroxy and when subject to large double blind test, they did not show a marked difference, if they had we and most definitely the 3rd world would be using them to great outcomes. Some in the 3rd world are using them, for lacking alternatives but we don't see great results. For every negative, there were some who said "you need to start earlier, add another drug to the cocktail" and any number of reasons why the study didn't show the result they wanted to see. The truth is some will get better taking them, some will get better taking nothing, the fact they get better is not proof they work.
Simply put small studies can rule things out but not in. They only can point in a direction where large studies are indicated.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 431

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:16 pm

Location: Custer, Washington

Post Thu Feb 17, 2022 5:48 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

I had read that the reason why Hydroxychloroquine was effective against Covid(and also other conditions over the years) is that it stops your body from overreacting to the virus. This overreaction by your body is what causes all of the buildup in your lungs and why people primarily die. At least the health ones that have. There is no doubt that Fauci is one of the corrupt swamp creatures. One thing is guaranteed. If you have ever agreed with Fauci, you have disagreed with Fauci on the same issue. He has been on every side of every issue. That is not science. He got caught in a lie about gain of function research and has no way out of that. I know one thing for sure. If Donald Trump was re-elected in 2020 he would have fired Fauci in a heartbeat. Surprised he did not do it before the election. I am sure his advisors told him not to. I am sure he is having second thoughts. He would have fired Christopher Wray also. He is another piece of work that has to go.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5170

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:57 pm

Re: Freedom of Choice

Unfortunately, that hasn't been proven in the large double blind tests. Unless and until something can show in a large double blind test and shows it in repeated tests, it isn't something that can be attributed to the drug. Science is always changing what we know today is different than what we knew a year ago, and will likely change next year. It means science is narrowing in on what they are dealing with. 2 years ago we didn't know anything. If science stood still, we would still think the earth is flat.
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