Heads up, R134a


Just keep it clean please....

Golden Jubilee
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Post Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:47 pm

Heads up, R134a

Last Friday the multi national binding accord was signed to ban R134a by 2019 in most of the developed nations, 3rd world has until 2030. So far I have not heard if 134a will go the way of R 12, I.E. you can still get it, but need a lic and the cost will go way up. The replacement is R1234yf, and it is not without problems (goggle it).
I did not "stockpile" R12 because the conversion to R134a was a minor retro-fit and R12 was proven to be a major cause of ozone depletion. R134a is ozone neutral, but is a "greenhouse gas" along with CO2 and just about everything else, which is why the ban. This time around I am holding onto an un opened 30lb Keg, and will use small cans when I need to. I also have used R134a that I remove from my systems when making repairs (compressor shaft seals and the like), that I store in a old LP tank that has been vacuumed out and the old R134a pumped in. I never "vented" refrigerant, long before it was mandated that you don't. I built my own "recovery" machine out of a surplus compressor and some fittings. While my system doesn't meet the "letter of the law" it does meet the spirit of the law, keeping the old stuff contained.
I guess what I'm getting at, be prepared for R134a to have the same restriction and hassles that R12 has now.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:59 pm

Re: Heads up, R134a

I can't say nationally but locally 99% of automotive A/C work is done by DYIers.
They don't care about restrictions or rules. I have to laugh!
PRICE is the only thing stopping them. When R-12 got really expensive they converted to 134. NO brainer for them. When R134a gets expensive they will convert, again.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Heads up, R134a

They are not supposed to be able to buy it (R12) but I'm sure there are some old stock being sold to the highest bidder.
15-20 years ago, I flirted with becoming a HVAC tech and was going to get a complete set of licenses, not just the one for automotive.
I 1st heard about a replacement for 134a about 8-10 years ago. From what I'm reading the R1234yf isn't going to retro-fit as easily as 134a did for R 12. It is somewhat flammable, esp when combined with the oil, and breaks down into a nasty acid when burned. I guess the compressor will work, but the condenser needs to be "reinforced" whatever that means. Takes a different oil and likely a different drier. Not sure about hoses.
At present I think the reclaim/recycle machines need to be separate from the R134a/R12 ones. Takes a different set of gauges and connectors.
I find it interesting that "slightly flammable" is now considered acceptable for auto refrigeration, anything flammable used to be a deal-killer in automotive use.
All in all, I hope I don't have to mess with it. I know many new cars have it in them already, but I have only one new enough to come from the factory with 134a!
I know some people with older cars belly-ache about 134a, but if you increase the condenser capacity by about 30% you'll get the same cooling out of 134a that you did out of R12, may be better as the newer condensers have progressed a long way from the old tube and fin.
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Golden Jubilee
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Post Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:33 pm

Re: Heads up, R134a

I don't even know for sure if my ag equipment was converted to R134 but I doubt it. Anytime it needs a re charge I just get the cans of Red Tek and I know a guy with a set of gauges who will hook it up and install the necessary refill.
I did have one tractor converted to the type of refrigerant that is propane based, the name of which escapes me now. It has been trouble free and gives great cold air.

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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:59 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

Propane and Butane are very good refrigerants but are not approved for use in space occupied by humans because of the fire danger if something ruptured. I can just imagine the conflagration that would happen during harvest , if a AC line broke on dumped propane on the engine and grain dust!
There is a lot that goes on that shouldn't.
Refrigerants used to placed in two classes, class A for non flammable like R12, R22, R134a and others, and Class B for flammable and irritants like Ammonia, SO2 and Flammables. Some class A's were used for fire extinguishers (Halon)
The powers that be didn't want R1234yf put in class B so they made a new class, A2 for "slightly flammable" (Like slightly pregnant?) refrigerants.
Never heard of Red tek so googled it and looked at the MSDS sheet, it is a flammable gas (likely propane) so is not a good choice for farm equipment and autos. A lot of stuff is sold, but only a very few meet the requirments.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:54 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

Mr. Goff's story about his A/C "hook up" is what we get here in Central CA all the time. "My buddy works for____and he came over after work and filled it up for me".
Freeze 12 was another name for the product people use.
I've personally never seen a process so regulated as A/C that is so..."worked around". At least with smog check the folks with the machine have to be in a certified shop.

The problem with A/C here in ghetto Dinuba is that it's just about impossible to live without it for about six months out of the year. The expense connected to replacing compressors is high, for example. Customers regard us as cheats for making them pay for something they must have.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:04 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

A lot of these flammables skirt the law by the fact they would be a fine replacement for other R12 and 134a devices like hermetically sealed units like 'fridges and ice makers and the like. They use relevantly small amounts, and are less likely to leak as there are no hoses. A 'fridge" rupture would release less propane than a old stove pilot light would over a course of a day. The same reasoning that harmful refrigerants were considered acceptable for old fridges. SO2 and Methyl Cloride, ammonia come to mind.
These are permissible in small amounts in habited space, how much is ok depends on the refrigerant in question.
I have an Ammonia fridge in my truck for over 20 years, without problem, but I would sure notice a leak if that happened.
Last edited by cornbinder89 on Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:18 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

Monsonmotors wrote:Mr. Goff's story about his A/C "hook up" is what we get here in Central CA all the time. "My buddy works for____and he came over after work and filled it up for me".
Freeze 12 was another name for the product people use.
I've personally never seen a process so regulated as A/C that is so..."worked around". At least with smog check the folks with the machine have to be in a certified shop.

The problem with A/C here in ghetto Dinuba is that it's just about impossible to live without it for about six months out of the year. The expense connected to replacing compressors is high, for example. Customers regard us as cheats for making them pay for something they must have.

No problem if the person in question is a lic tech, but more often than not, it is someone who has gauges or a can tap, and puts in what he can buy over the counter without a Lic. That in its self isn't the problem, but what that person may or may not do is.
I don't have a Lic I never took the test, but did all the studying to get the Lic. I never bothered because 134a didn't require it, and I never saw R12 to be worth the cost, and did have the environmental draw backs.
As I said, I capture before opening (the main point of the regulations) and use non-ozone depleting refrigerants in my vehicles.
Filling without finding the leak is neither responsible nor economically a good idea. Systems with hoses and shaft seals are going to leak a small amount, and 134a is a smaller molecule than R12 is more prone to leak.
Those who just keep topping up the system are going to run the compressor out of oil and sooner or later are going to seize the compressor and send metal particles thru the system, then their "cheap way out" is going to come back and bite them.

Golden Jubilee
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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

I think Freeze12 is 134a with just enough propane to move the mineral oil lube that R12 used. 134a and mineral oil will not mix, which is why a 134a conversion requires an oil change.
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Golden Jubilee
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Post Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Heads up, R134a

Red tek refills are sold locally in most farm supply shops and are completely safe and legal as far as I know. The guy who does my work is an experienced veteran heavy duty mechanic that I have complete faith in. I will look up the name of the propane based (I think) refrigerant I have had in one of the tractors for the past ten (or more) years. Again, it was installed at a farm equipment dealership by licensed mechanics and I have never heard of a problem with it. No leaks in the 35 year old compressor yet.
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