Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?


The workhorse

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 pm

Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Hi,

I finally brought my truck home a couple days ago. I doubt I'll be able to work on it any this year as the weather is already icy during the morning and below freezing at night. So the first thing I wanted to do was to put it up on jack stands and cover it with a good tarp. But I soon realized there wasn't enough room for both a bottle jack and jack stands under the rear axle. How does one normally raise and support the back (or front) of a truck like this?

What I finally did was to use a Hi-Lift jack with a 4 ft pipe as a handle extension. Could not use it anywhere on the body work as it, (the body), would bend. So I sat it next to the tire with the jack's lift platform just inside the rim and lifted that way. It worked, but I really don't think it was very safe. I worried that the jack's lifting platform end might pop out of the wheel rim, or the Hi-Lift jack itself might bend or collapse as I'm sure I was probably far exceeding the designed lifting capacity of the jack.

What's the proper way to lift and support each axle end on a truck like this? I've always been taught you don't lift a heavy truck with a floor jack by its axle pumpkin - is that true? I don't mind spending a hundred or two on some tool, but a couple grand on the hydraulic wheel lifts like they use in a truck tire shop is out of the budget. How should an individual put this truck on jack stands to work on it?

Thank you for any advice you can offer.

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Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:40 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Bottle jack under the axle where it attaches to the springs, jackstand right next to it on the axle tube
Jack on the inside of the rim is a good way to deform the rim!

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

I'll have to look to see if it will work that way. There definitely isn't enough room to do it the other way with the jack stands under the springs (or as close as possible under the springs) and the bottle jack next to it on the axle tube.

Excellent point about distorting the rims! I did not think of that, perhaps, because at the end of the build its in my plans to get some new 22.5 one piece rims. The rims on there now are split rims and I've heard so many bad things about them and I have seen several videos on exploding rims so that now I am scared to do anything with them. Sitting all this time the duels on one corner of the truck are completely flat but a video warns that it's dangerous to even add air to flat tires with split rims. The video states they should have chain wrapped around through them then transported to a truck tire store and let them add the air. Do you agree? Would the clamps on that Dayton hub retain the rim if it exploded when I was adding air? Sorry for all the newbie questions, but this is the first truck I've ever worked on larger than a 1-ton.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:28 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

75% or better of what is written about multi-piece rims is wrong or misleading. You most defiantly need someone to educate you on the correct way to handle them, That truck sits on spokes so it does not have the Firestone RH5deg wheel which is the bad one.
As I write this in the sleeper of my semi, it is sitting on 6 of the 20" lock ring wheels. I run all over the country on them and never have a problem.
Once the tire and rim is assembled correctly, they can not come apart. It takes less than 20 psi in the tube to properly seat the bead over the lock ring and hold it in place.
You need to find a good old time truck tire shop to show you the correct way to handle truck tires.
A single piece 22.5 rim holds just the same amount of stored energy as a 20" tube type, either can explode and release the same amount of energy. Knowing how to handle and what to look for is important, regardless if it is tube type or tubeless.
I've changed countless truck and bus tires and never had a failure of the rim or tire assembly, but do know what to look for. I did have a 22.5 tubeless tire fail while sitting still in the yard, sounded like a bomb going off, and it was tubeless on a one piece rim.
Chain wrapped around the assembly will not save you if something fails, it will turn the chain into shrapnel. The best defense is careful inspection when the assembly doesn't have more than 20 PSI in it (not enough stored energy to do damage), rather than trying to contain an exploding assembly.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:47 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

To answer your question about airing up flat tires, it depends, if the bead has moved away from the edge, the lock ring is not secured into its groove and if it has been pushed out of the groove by rust, it can come apart when the tire bead pushes against it instead of going over it and forcing it down in the lock groove.
The lock ring is facing out on the fronts, and the wedges holding the rim on will not stop the ring from blowing outward. On the rears, the lock rings are facing eachother so are somewhat contained, but really you should remove and inspect if they have sat deflated for a long time.
On lock ring type rims, the bead of the tire is what contains and forces the ring into the lock groove. Once the bead is over the ring, you could cut it into a dozen pieces and the rim still would not come apart.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 8937

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:45 pm

Location: Canada's left Coast

Post Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:10 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

I have first hand experience with a multi piece wheel separating and decapitating a person. I did the investigation on this one.
These tire wheel combinations are not for the inexperienced.
So, if a person is lucky enough to control the assembly with a length of chain and the assembly blows apart, it is very likely the air-blast will kill the unlucky tire guy. A tire blast cage will contain the pieces, but not the blast. https://youtu.be/HANwJp8Z5mc

https://youtu.be/lRLXeXjLmx8
I would rather have tools I do not need than to need tools I do not have
Thinking risks being controversial and possibly being offensive

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:37 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

The 1st thing I do when trying to impress on newbies on how much energy is contained in a truck tire, is to take a "flat" tube type truck tire and hand the newbie a bicycle pump and tell them to pump it up to 110 psi! none have been able to do it!

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:04 am

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

hi,
Thank you, everyone, for your replies. They are appreciated. I will respond to them later . . . but I would like to say that after careful inspection, I don't see any lock ring. I've had old Chevy trucks some with one piece rims, some with lock rings and a few two piece rims and I can definitely say there is no lock ring visible. So are these the very dangerous split rims? And what could cause a tubeless tire on a 1 piece rim to explode - anything other than over-inflation or a rusty, old or damaged rim?

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Also on an unrelated note, since I just brought the truck home a few days ago, I'm looking at the truck closely for the first time. This truck has a 5 speed but it seems to have a strange trans / bell-housing setup. All other T35 or T36 transmissions I've seen have a one piece heavy cast iron bell housing, but this truck seems to have a 2-piece more rounded bell housing, It's hard to tell because of the wide under-bell-housing bracket that goes from one side of the frame to the other, but it just doesn't look like the bell housings I've seen on IH 5-speeds. Could this be some type of IH truck trans adapter possibly for mounting a non-IH 5-speed to the IH 392 engine? If so, how would I ever find out what model transmission I actually have? Unfortunately this truck came from Canada and there is no line set ticket available for the truck.
Thanks.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:03 am

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

1st the lock ring is clear visible in both pictures, it is the part with the split in it and the part number that is visible in the 2nd picture. With the tire deflated, you push the bead back toward the center of the rim, releasing the lock ring, which can be expanded over the rim base and removed, then the assembly is fliped over and the other bead "broke" and the tire/flap/tube slides off the rim.
It has been awhile (40 years) since I've been under a Loadstar, so don't remember if they use a SAE bell or the modified split bell that IHC used on later engines. Either way, there are two halves to the bell, and engine half and a trans half. This allowed different combo's to be used. The engine half would be the same for whatever trans was mounted and the trans half would always be the the same no matter which engine it was mated to.
In heavy trucks an SAE standard was used. There are different size Bell housings from 00 to 5, the higher numbers being smaller. This make it much simpler fitting trans or in industrial generators, pumps or clutches to engines. The engine had a bell that attaches to the block and ends in a circle, whatever you mate to it has an adaptor that bolts it the item and ends in a circle, the two bolt together.
So any #2 trans can be bolted to any #2 engine (although you still have to work out clutch and spline issues)

On some of their engines from the mid fiftys, IHC made up a similar system that didn't conform to the SAE standard but worked in a similar manor. Both the engine and trans had 1/2 a housing and the two bolt together to complete the set. The SAE will be completely round, the IHC will be mostly round but not an exact circle.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5171

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:18 am

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Those are the type rims I run and are safe, the ring can not come out once the bead has expanded over the inside of the lock ring.
As to what cause the failure on a one piece rim, it was a tire failure the tire was in the sun and heated the air inside the tire, a defect in the tire itself caused the casing to explode. The point is that it doesn't matter if you are working around one piece or multi piece rims/tire combos. the stored energy is the same and both can kill when released all at once.
If you are going to work on or around something with that much stored energy, get the training to know what to look for and how to handle them properly.
If you lived close by I would give you a tutorial on those rims, they are easy to work on and safe if handled correctly.
I cannot read the tire size definitively is it 8.25 x 20? I just hope it isn't a 22" rim as there aren't many tires made in the 22" size any more.
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