Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?


The workhorse

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

cornbinder89 wrote:. . .
If you are going to work on or around something with that much stored energy, get the training to know what to look for and how to handle them properly.
If you lived close by I would give you a tutorial on those rims, they are easy to work on and safe if handled correctly.
I cannot read the tire size definitively is it 8.25 x 20? I just hope it isn't a 22" rim as there aren't many tires made in the 22" size any more.


Great info, Sir, thank you.

All 6 tires are 900 x 20's. The rear are Firestone Super All-Traction and seem to have lots of tread left, and the fronts are some off-brand and look mostly worn out. The bead is broke loose from the rim on at least one tire, and the tire pressures range from zero to 40 psi.

Do I have the kind of rim shown in the first picture below and I just can't see the lock ring, or is it just a 2-piece rim like shown in the 2nd picture?
Can my 900x20 tires be used on a 22.5 tubeless rim like shown in the 3rd picture?
Will such a rim require different clamps or are all clamps the same and interchangeable?
Does anyone make 22.5 tubeless rims with beadlocks?
I will be using this truck sometimes off road - how low can I go with air pressure before they (either split rims or tubeless rims) become dangerous?
Sorry for all the newbie questions . . .

Well Cornbinder, you have a standing invitation if you ever happen to be traveling through Northern Calif near Alturas, I'll pay for a nights stay for you at a local hotel. It's that important to me to learn about these things. And it would be nice to talk trucks with someone knowledgeable. For being rural cow country, there really is no one here that knows much about IH trucks or much about medium duty trucks of any type. Even the person who transported the truck to my house asked me, pointing to the Dayton spokes, "what kind of wheel is that?"

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Last edited by overdriveSteve on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

And even more questions -
What is the best way to balance a tire this large? Spin balance, bubble balance, computer balance, or just throw two packets of balance beads into the tire at time of mounting?

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:25 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Yours are a spoke version on the middle picture. 2 pieces base and lock ring. The top is a 3 piece, base, side ring and lock ring.
A 20" tire goes on a 20 rim ONLY. so no, it can't go on a 22.5 rim.

Where it gets confusing is a 22.5 rim goes on a 20" set of spokes. The spokes aren't 20" but are called that because they take a 20" rim and tire.
With spokes there are 15", 20" 22" and 24" . 15" spokes were used on low deck trailers. 20" is the most common spoke in North America and takes either a 20" spoke rim or a 22.5" spoke rim (tubeless). 22" spokes take a 22" tube type or a 24.5" tubeless rim. and a 24" spoke takes a 24" tube type rim (more commonly used overseas, but were popular on the east coast for a while with heavy haulers and construction trucks.) NJ used to allow more weight on a 24" shod truck so they were popular there.
The wedges and spacer band (for duels) are mated to the hub they were built for. It doesn't matter what rim you use, the spacer and wedges don't change. The offset on spoke wheels is a function of the rim width, the wider the rim the more it is offset.
This can be a problem when trying to switch from tube type to tubeless. It is not a problem in the larger size rims and tires like 10.00X20 on a 7.5 or 8' rim width, but is a problem with the narrower rims used on 9.00 or 8.25 x20's
The tubeless go on wider rims, then their corresponding tube type. For example: a 10.00 x20 fits a 7.5 or 8 inch rim. the equlvent tubeless is an 11x 22.5 and it goes on a 8.25 or 9" rim width. It can be hard to find tubeless rims in narrow widths. A 9.00x 20 would be replaced by a 10x22.5 tire and that should go on a 7 or 7.5" rim. You may have trouble finding a 22.5 in narrower sizes. and you need to check the dual spaceing to make sure the tires don't rub. Regardless or rim width the same wedges and spacer band is used. Changing either can result in a loose wheel or an improper assembly that can break off studs or the rim can spin on the hub.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5170

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:30 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

The only way to balance a spoke is to spin them on the hub. Most places that had the tools to do this have long since got rid of them, They used a big motor to spin up the wheel/hub and a strobe light to find the heavy spot.
I never balance either my Budds nor my spokes. At 60 MPH they only spin about 500 rpm, so a tire would have to be way out to cause a problem.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:14 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

So now I'm really confused with which direction I want to go. I've spent many hours reading the past couple days. Perhaps if someone were here whose experience I could trust to teach me I would stay with the two-piece rims. But with all I've read, I really would like the piece of mind of a one-piece rim.

But to start with I'm at a loss with what to do with my present wheels/tires. They are at various stages of deflation - from about 35 psi to zero psi and the bead has broke loose on at least one tire.
Do I inflate them on the truck with chains wrapped through them?
Or do I remove them from the truck and hope they don't explode handling them while I take them down to a tire shop with a cage and have the tire shop properly inflate them?
Or perhaps just remove the valve stem core and stand back until they are completely deflated and leave them deflated? I just don't know.
I had an old Chevy 1-ton at one time that had 3-piece rims. Once on the highway it got a flat on the front steering axle and nothing happened. The tire did not explode . . I don't even remember the rim coming apart. It just went flat like any one-piece tire/rim combination would do.

Here are the one-piece Dayton rims I've found available on the internet:
page 1:
http://www.wheelsnowinc.com/catalog/ind ... untingID=1
page 2:
http://www.wheelsnowinc.com/catalog/ind ... gID=1&pg=2
other rim manufacturer:
https://buytruckwheels.com/pages/search ... e?q=dayton
Dayton rim and brake drum catalog:
https://www.dsuban.com/website_docs/Hay ... _02-03.pdf

I like the idea that the Maxion rims are made in the USA there in the 3rd link. And they have about a hundred pound higher rating per Accuride's equivalent rim in the first link. And don't use the search function in the last pdf file link. I found a lot more Dayton rims by just scrolling through the file than by using the search.

Is it possible to run these tires (in the link below) as single tires on each corner of the truck? What Dayton rims would you recommend for those tires? I've read a lot of good things about these tires and that is why the military uses them. Also, from my understanding they would need a 10 in wide rim and the manufacturer says they can be used with tubes if desired. I especially like the idea that they are 46 in. tall in addition to being a good mud and snow tire. (I have 7.17 ratios in both axles).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MICHELIN-XZL-3 ... 2835341447

Thank you, Sir, for your continued help and pointing me in the right directions.

Steve

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

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Post Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

And another newbie question ... sorry ... - I read somewhere that there is a difference in the height of the edge of the rim of a tube-type rim as opposed to a tubeless rim. Is that true? Is so, then I would probably want to use whichever one-piece rim has the highest lip. Correct...since the truck will be used off-road?
Thanks.

Golden Jubilee
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Location: Lyman, IA

Post Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:47 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Ok, lots of stuff to get to here.
1st, rim width matters! Your truck presently sits on 9.00xx20's IIRC. That means they are on 7" width rims or less. A 10X 22.5 tire on a 7.5 width rim would be the tubeless equivalent of the 9.00x 20. They would be the same height diameter and width as the tires you have now, and if the same load rating (ply rateing) they will carry the same load.
Your comparison of the Accuride and Maxon rims was flawed because you were comparing different width rims. The wider the rim the more weight it is designed for. An 8.25" 22.5 are designed for around 7400 lbs, a 9" 22.5 can carry 9000 or if a high cap 9" is spec'd 10,000 Lbs. A 7.5" 22.5 is designed for less because the tires that fit it are lighter cap also.
You can't jump rim width willy-nilly. you must check that there is enough room so the wider rim and tire will not hit the frame or springs on the inside and body on the outside. On the front the tie rod and brake hose must clear and the also there is clearance when the wheel is turned lock to lock.
You can be reasonably sure that a 10x 22.5 tire and wheel can replace the 9.00x 20's you have now, if fitted on 7.5" width rims. When switching from tube to tubeless, you go up one tire size and one step in rim width and add 2.5" to the rim diameter.
Those 20"tires are made for Military rims that bolt together with an O ring to seal the joint, or can be fitted with a tube. Either way you are looking at special rims . Since they are for single mounting only, a special rim made for the rear with two bevels are required and a special front rim with the offset to place the center of the rim over the center of the hub. Look at Accurides "Super Single" rim for spoke wheels to see what I'm talking about. So you need different rims for front and back if running super wide tires on spoke hubs. I've never seen spoke rims for those wide base 20" tires, the military favored disk type wheels.
There is a difference (many actually) in the design of tubeless and tube type rims. Tubeless have the rim end very near the bead and the bead angle is 15deg. Tube type rims, the side of the rim extends further up the tire to support the tire and the bead angle is 5 deg. This means that both tubeless and tube type rims end at aprox the same point. If you are planning to run low pressures for sand, you will be less likely to loose a tire with tube type.
Normally, as long as the tires have at least 20 Psi you would be safe in re-inflating without worry. BUT in your case, you have no idea as to the condition of the rims, they could be rusted to the point they are too thin to hold the tire contained. You really should pull the tires off the rims, clean inspect and paint the inside, then you'll know they are good to use. Jack the axle up, remove the valve cores and take the rims off, then dis assemble. Unlike tubeless rims, which will tend not to seal air long before they rust to the point of being weak, Tubes will hold air on the rim that has rusted paper thin. So Until you know the condition inside, assume they are degraded. They don't have to be rust free and shiny inside, but you want to remove all flaky rust, and paint, while inspecting to see that the metal is thick. You want the tire to be able to slide on the rim, not be stuck on a band of rust. If the bead can slide to the seat, the lock ring will be seated and locked in.
Tube type tires that have sat on the rims for a long time, especially if low on air, tend to form a rust band inside the tire where the tire, flap and rim meet. This can make them very hard to break down. I have been lucky and had tires that have been on for 40 years, break easily and ones that have been on much less time be almost impossible to get off. It all come down to how much moisture has been able to get in to the assembly.
As to flats with tube type rims, I've had 2 steer tires let go at 70 Mph and one at 55 and found them much easier to deal with then tubeless, no "gutter" in the center of the rim to cause the tire to flop back and forth like a tubeless rim has. I have had both tubeless and tube type flats, both with heavy loaded steer axles 12,000 + Lbs.
You are not going to "overcome" the 7.17 ratio with tire size. Either re-ratio (if possible) or add an Aux trans between the main and transfer case.
The spokes on the rear (how wide the flat portion of the spoke is) and the spacer band will determine how wide a tire/rim combo can be placed on the hub, but the truck spring and frame may not allow the widest combo the hub will allow. Both truck and hub must be taken into account.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 338

Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:50 am

Post Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:52 pm

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Thank you, Sir, for sharing all this information.
In the past with my old 1-ton Chevy's when off-road or driving without a heavy load I always just considered rear dual tires as just sort of a way to carry two spare tires.

Due to the cold weather I have not pulled the wheels off the hubs yet to see how they actually work, but I get the impression with these spoke hubs I can't use one of the rear tires as a spare if needed; in other words I can't drive with 3 or just two wheels on the rear axle, am I correct? Is there a wheel spacer or way to do that or do I just need to buy and carry a spare wheel/tire if I keep these wheels?

I did find a company that sells new 20x10 in. wide rims for Dayton type hubs for the Michelin 395/85R20 XZL tires. So now I'm at the stage of trying to figure out if they will work on my truck. I definitely don't want to use two different types of rims for those tires. The point is to have one spare that will work on any corner of the truck. Perhaps I might need to change the hubs on one axle.

Those tires are only 6 in. taller than the stock tires I have on there now but they may help a little bit with my 7.17 ratio. And I do have a little Spicer 5831 aux trans I plan to put between the 5-speed and the transfer case. It's a 3-speed with a .73 over drive. Sometime in the past I calculated this would be a good gearing set-up - lots of low gear combinations and overdrive for the highway - or at least for those long downhill runs. :-)

Thank you again, Sir, for your help in my research.

Golden Jubilee
Golden Jubilee

Posts: 5170

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Location: Lyman, IA

Post Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Advice needed - Which tool or procedure do I use?

Just take the flat tire off the rim and put the rim back on. They also make special "wedges" for mounting a single rim without spacer and outer rim on a hub made for duals, but aren't supposed to be used on a heavy loaded axle.
Wide rims for Super singles are different front and rear on spoke hubs. They can't be the same,
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